龔鵬程x梶谷真司｜不能自由交談，將也無法自由思考

龔鵬程對話海外學者第七十二期：在后現代情境中，被技術統治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

梶谷真司教授（Professor Shinji KAJITANI）

日本東京大學藝術與科學研究生院教授

龔鵬程教授：您好。您能介紹一下您在哲學領域的研究嗎？中國哲學對您的研究工作有什么影響？

梶谷真司教授：龔教授，您好。我的研究覆蓋相當多的領域，可以大致分為五個主要領域：西方哲學、東方哲學、醫學史、宗教和哲學實踐。

西方哲學方面，我專門研究現象學，特別是馬丁-海德格爾（Martin Heidegger）和赫爾曼-施密茨（Hermann Schmitz）。在我的博士論文中，我主要以這兩位哲學家為基礎，探討了我們的肉體和情緒是如何構成人類存在的這一主題。

至于東方哲學，我對中醫做了一些研究，因為我一直對人類以肉體形式存在的生命感興趣，想把這個問題在西方和東方文化中進行比較。因此，我參與了醫學史的研究。在近代之前，日本已經汲取了中國的醫學的本質，但由于日本和中國在文化和語言上的差異，隨著時間的推移，它變得日本化了。我研究了日本醫學與中國醫學的不同之處以及原因，特別涉及到了關于育兒和養生的文本材料。

在宗教方面，我并沒有對著名的宗教思想家很感興趣，而是對民間的信仰與節日感興趣。這些也與育兒及養生、健康和疾病密切相關，也與醫學史的研究相關。

最后，關于哲學實踐，它涵蓋了諸如哲學論壇、哲學教育、哲學咨詢和顧問等活動，這些都是以對話形式為基礎的。我一直在為各種各樣的人去創造場合，讓大家通過提問、交談以及相互傾聽的方式來共同思考，從而加深和拓寬自己的思維。我把這種哲學對話的活動命名為 “人人哲學"，并努力為教育、企業培訓和地方社區建設作出貢獻。

雖然我進行了各種各樣的研究，但我真正感興趣的不是偉大的哲學家和他們思想的獨特性，而是普通人的思考方式，以及他們的思維是如何隨著時間和文化而變化的。

My research has quite divers fields and can be roughly divided into five main areas: Western philosophy, Eastern philosophy, medical history, religion, and philosophical practice. In Western philosophy, I specialize in phenomenology, especially Martin Heidegger and Hermann Schmitz. In my doctoral thesis, I explored the theme of how our body and emotions constitute human existence, mainly on the basis of these two philosophers.

As for Eastern philosophy, I did research into Chinese medicine, because I had been interested in bodily existence of human life and wanted to compare this issue in Western and Eastern culture. Therefore, it was quite natural that I got involved in medical history. Before the modern era, Japan had assimilated Chinese medicine, but because of the cultural and linguistic differences between Japan and China, it became Japanized over time, and I investigated how and why Japanese medicine differed from Chinese medicine, especially dealing with the texts on child-rearing and nurturing life.

As for religion, I did not take much interest in famous religious thinkers, but rather in folk beliefs and festivals. These are also closely related to child-rearing and nurturing life, health, and illness, and are also relevant to the study of medical history.

Finally, regarding philosophical practice, it covers such activities as philosophy cafe, philosophy education, philosophy counseling and consulting, and so on which are all based on dialogue. I have been creating places for various kinds of people to think together by asking questions, talking, and listening to each other, and so to deepen and broaden one's own thinking. I named this activity of philosophy dialogue “Philosophy for Everyone”, and am working for education, corporate training, and local community building.

Though I have conducted a wide variety of research, what I am fundamentally interested in is not great philosophers and the uniqueness of their ideas, but rather how ordinary people think, and how their thoughts change over time and culture.

龔鵬程教授：您研究了現代西方世界和前現代亞洲世界中，人類以肉體形式存在的差異。您所說的肉體的存在形式是什么意思，它在西方和前現代亞洲世界中有什么不同？ 您如何解釋這種差異？

梶谷真司教授：這里的存在是受海德格爾（Heidegger）的 "存在于世界 "的啟發，指的是肉體切實存在于世界之中。我們的 "自我 “不能離開肉體而存在，只有通過肉體，我們才能與他人一起生活在現實世界中。對我來說，現象學就是對人類這種生存模式的探索。

自然科學研究的是人類的客觀肉體形象，現象學研究的是人類的主觀身體感受。然而，現象學與自然科學相同，它試圖了解人類的各種方面。那么我們可以問一個問題：當人類的肉體存在于不同的時期和不同的文化中是否會有所不同？如果是的話，差異是如何產生的？

西方和東方關于人類的肉體存在方面的區別在于:

在西方，身體是個體化的，自我、他人和周圍世界之間的界限是很明確的。這種觀點早在笛卡爾的二元論之前就已經存在了。

而在東方，根據一元論和整體論，即世界上的一切都由 "氣 “組成，身體不是個體化的，自我、他人和世界之間的界限是模糊的。這也表現在育兒和養生上，人格和心智容易受到身體和他人的影響，從而變得不穩定和脆弱。因此，與西方的心身二元論和唯我論相反，在東方，自我與他人的界限模糊不清，缺乏自主性，成為了一個嚴重的哲學和現實問題。

在現代化的影響下，更多的西方文化和科學被東方國家汲取，在日本，個體變得更加自主化，自我和他人之間的界限比以前更加清晰。然而，在日常生活中的人際關系和社區層面，西方和前現代東亞之間似乎仍然存在類似的差異。

Existence here is inspired by Heidegger's “Being-in-the-World” and refers to being physically present in the world. Our “self” cannot exist without the body, and it is only through the body that we can live in the real world with others. For me, phenomenology is the exploration of this mode of our human existence.

Natural sciences deal with the objective body viewed by humans, but phenomenology deals with the subjective body lived by oneself. However, phenomenology is the same as natural science in that it tries to cope with the universal aspects of human existence. Then we can ask a question: does human bodily existence differ from period to period and from culture to culture? If so, how?

The difference between the West and the East in terms of bodily existence is that in the West, the body is individualized and the boundary between the self, others, and the surrounding world is clearly drawn. This perspective can be already found even before Descartes' dualism. In the East, on the other hand, because of monism and holism that everything in the world is made up ofQi (氣), the body is not individualized and the boundary between the self, others, and the world is ambiguous. This is also manifested in child rearing and nurturing life (養生), where the personality and mind are easily influenced by the body and others, which makes them unstable and vulnerable. As a result, in the East, instead of the mind-body dualism and solipsism in the West, the blurring of the distinction between self and others and the lack of autonomy became a serious philosophical and practical problem.

In Japan, Western culture and science are continually being assimilated through modernization, and bodily existence is becoming more autonomous, with an increasingly clearer distinction between self and others. However, at the level of human relationships and communities in our daily lives, there seems the difference between the West and premodern East Asia seems to remain similar.

龔鵬程教授：您是東京大學 "哲學中心 "的 "人人哲學 "項目的統籌者。這個項目的目的是什么，到目前為止的主要成就是什么？

梶谷真司教授：“人人哲學” 是受 “兒童哲學（P4C）” 的啟發。在2012年，我在夏威夷親身體驗了一次。在我參觀的一所小學和中學里，學生們圍坐在一起討論他們選擇的問題。它既令人興奮又充滿哲理，我相信它不僅對孩子，而且對成年人來說也會很有趣。

從夏威夷回來后，我舉辦了一個名為 "人人哲學 "的研討會，參與者之多讓我感到驚訝，男女老少都有。他們中的大多數人表示，他們對哲學知之甚少。我意識到，這里對哲學的需求肯定是完全不同的。在研討會上，我們一起討論和思考了一個問題，并遵循了幾個原則：你可以說任何你想說的話，但不要對別人持有消極態度 / 只聽不說也可以。/ 不要用你的知識，而是用你的經歷去交談。在場的所有參與者都在認真思考，像夏威夷P4C的孩子一樣享受。除此之外，通過僅僅一個多小時的哲學對話后，素不相識的人們竟然變得像好朋友一樣親密。

這就是為什么我發起了 "人人哲學"（P4E）的項目。這個項目的兩個主要目標是 “創造共同思考的機會” 與 “創造一個具有包容性的地方，讓不同的人能夠聚在一起”。我還參與了以下活動：1）支持學校中的主動學習和探究學習；2）幫助撫養孩子的母親、老人和殘疾人群體，在那里他們可以與各種人交談、互動；3）為公司、部委和其他組織提供團隊建設培訓；4）在人口減少的村鎮重振當地社區。通過這種方式，我試圖通過 “對話、質疑、思考、交流和傾聽”的經驗，使社會和哲學都更加包容地為社會服務。

Philosophy for Everyone is inspired by Philosophy for Children (P4C). I personally got the opportunity to experience it in Hawaii in 2012. In an elementary and high school which I visited, students sat in a circle and discussed questions they had chosen. It was exciting as well as philosophical, and I was convinced that it would be interesting not only for children but for adults, too.

After returning from Hawaii, I held a workshop called “Philosophy for Everyone”, and was surprised by the large number of participants, young and old, men and women. Most of them said that they knew very little about philosophy. I realized that there must be a quite different demand for philosophy here. In the workshop, we talked and thought together about a single question, following a few rules: You can say anything you want, but don't take a negative attitude toward others / It is OK to just listen and not speak. / Speak from your own experience, not from your knowledge. All the participants there were thinking seriously and enjoying themselves, just like the children in the Hawaiian P4C. Moreover, after just an hour or so of such philosophical dialogue, people who had never met each other before became surprisingly close, as if they were good friends.

This is why I launched a project called “Philosophy for Everyone” (P4E). The two main objectives of the project are "to create opportunities to think together" and "to create an inclusive place where diverse people can be together”. I have been engaged in the following activities: 1) support for active learning and inquiry learning in schools, 2) support for groups of mothers raising children, of the elderly, and of people with disabilities, where they can speak and interact with a variety of people, 3) team building for companies, ministries, and other organizations, and 4) revitalization of local communities in depopulated villages and towns. In this way, I am trying to make both society and philosophy more inclusive, and work for society through dialogue, and the experience of "questioning, thinking, speaking, and listening".

龔鵬程教授：在一個關于老齡化的會議上，您做了一個題為 “沒有思考自由的國家—通過哲學對話看日本社會的問題”的演講。您所說的 “沒有思考自由的國家” 是指什么？

梶谷真司教授：我這里所說的自由與受法律保護的 “思想自由” 大不相同。它是指在家庭、學校和工作中非常常見的日常情況。首先，如果我們不能自由交談，那我們也無法自由思考。此外，我們只有在有問題的時候才能思考。如果沒有問題，我們的腦子里就只有一些模糊的想法，但是這并不是“思考”。因此，只有當我們可以說任何話，可以問任何問題的時候，我們才能自由地思考。

然而，在我們的日常生活中，我們通常無法說任何想說的話。我們害怕如果我們說出這樣的話，會被人嘲笑、感到尷尬、冒犯別人，或者害怕如果我們這樣說會給人留下不好的印象。這就代表著我們總是試圖說出人們期望我們說的話，而不是說出我們想說的話。自由地提問也很困難；當人們問問題時，他們往往是憤怒或沮喪的。當我們被問問題時，我們有時會覺得自己受到了指責，或者我們會懷疑對方為什么要這樣問。

在日本，無論是在學校還是工作中，問問題都是不受歡迎的。我們經常被期望只做被告知的事。在其他時候，在人們不需要開口問的情況下，猜測出他們的感受或想法，并滿足他們的需求，才被認為是好的。有時侯這被稱為日本的好客精神。在任何情況下，對我們自己和他人來說，不思考的才被認為是最理想的。

在這樣一個社會里，沒有思考的自由。相反，在哲學對話中，只要你不對他人采取消極的態度，你就可以談論或詢問任何事情。在學校、公司和當地社區創造了這樣的機會后，我意識到許多人第一次體驗到了思考的自由，而我們在生活中通常沒有這樣的機會。

The freedom which I mean here is quite different from the legally protected "freedom of thought”. It is rather the very commonplace everyday situations at home, at school, and at work. Firstly, if we cannot talk freely, we cannot think freely either. Moreover, we can only think when we have questions. Without questions, we would only have vague thoughts running around in our heads, which is not "thinking”. Therefore, we can think freely only when we can say anything and ask any question.

In our daily lives, however, we are rarely allowed to say anything. We are afraid we may be laughed at, offend others, or embarrass ourselves if we say something wrong, or fail to make a good impression if we broach certain topics. This means we try to say what people expect us to say, rather than what we want to say. It is also difficult to ask questions freely; when people ask questions, they are often angry or frustrated. When we are asked questions, we often feel suspicious as to why someone is asking us something, or perhaps that we are being blamed.

In Japan, questions are not welcome at school or at work. We are often expected to just do what we are told. In other cases, it is considered good to anticipate people's feelings or thoughts, and to satisfy their needs so that they don’t have to ask something. This is sometimes called the spirit of Japanese hospitality. In any case, what is regarded as ideal for ourselves and others is not to think.

In such a society there is no freedom to think. In philosophical dialogue, on the contrary, you can talk or ask anything as long as you do not take a negative attitude toward others. Having created such opportunities in schools, companies, and local communities, I realized many people experience the freedom to think, often for the first time, which we do not usually have in our lives.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規劃城市建設、主題園區等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。