龔鵬程x祈立天｜西方人目前仍然沒有了解中國的動機

龔鵬程對話海外學者第九十四期：在后現代情境中，被技術統治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

祈立天（Tim Clissold）

英國著名作家，有多本中國相關著述。他曾接受過中國中央電視臺的專訪。

龔鵬程教授：您好。您為什么要寫《中國先生》《中國規則》和《云室》這樣三本關于中國的書？

祈立天：龔教授，您好。我寫每本書都有不同的原因。我按時間順序為您講述：

《中國先生》：20世紀90年代，我在中國有一段非常復雜和不尋常的經歷，我負責了4.18億美元的投資。這項投資包括在北京、江蘇、廣東、四川、山西、河北、湖北、湖南和安徽的20家合資企業，它們遇到了多個嚴重問題。我覺得在中國損失，然后追回如此巨額資金的經歷，值得向西方人講述，因為它表明中國的規則和社會規范與西方不同，我認為這是西方人與中國打交道應該知道的。

《中國規則》：在反思了《中國先生》的教訓后，我在多年后寫了這本書。我試圖解釋我在書中發現的中國規則和社會規范，把某些行為與中國文明的歷史經驗聯系起來。換句話說，我試圖強調中國人的歷史經驗的各個方面，這些經驗導致他們的行為略微不同，并且（從西方人的角度來看）不可預測。這樣西方人就可以理解和聯系這些原因，而不是僅僅認為中國人作為人在本質上是不同的。

《云室》：通過《云室》，我選擇了杜甫、李白、蘇東坡、梅堯臣、李煜、柳宗元、白居易和王安石寫的大約70首詩，并將它們翻譯成英文。我選擇了那些涉及任何人類都能理解的主題，并且符合當代西方人關切的詩歌。例如，柳宗元寫的是森林過度采伐的危險。杜甫后期在逃難，所以他的作品與當下一些歐洲人的想法非常一致。白居易寫的是社會不公、《賣炭翁》和逃稅。還有一些關于愛和渴望、人與自然的互動以及生命的真正意義的詩，所以我選擇了我認為會引起西方人共鳴的詩。

我寫了一篇文章，將這些中世紀的中國詩歌與現代西方科學（量子物理學）聯系起來。這本書的目的是研究人類生活的共同主題，并得出結論，盡管我們有不同的歷史經歷，有不同的傳統和做事方式，但本質上我們都是一樣的。

I had different reasons for writing each book. In chronological order:

Mr China: I had a very complicated and unusual experience in China during the 1990’s where I was responsible for an investment of $418 million. The investment included 20 joint ventures in Beijing, Jiangsu, Guangdong, Sichuan, Shanxi, Hebei, Hubei, Hunan and Anhui and they ran into multiple serious problems. I felt that the experience of losing and then recovering such a huge amount of money in China was worth telling to Westerners because it showed that the rules and social norms in China are different from the West and I thought that was something Westerns dealing with China should know.

Chinese Rules: I wrote this book many years later after reflecting on the lessons from ‘Mr China.’ I tried to explain the Chinese rules and social norms I had found in that book by linking certain behaviours back to historical experiences of the Chinese civilisation. In other words, I tried to highlight the aspects of the historical experience of the Chinese people, which caused them to behave in a slightly different and (from a Westerners point of view) unpredictable fashion so that Westerners could understand and relate to those causes, rather than just thinking that Chinese people were fundamentally different as human beings.

Cloud Chamber: with Cloud Chamber, I selected about 70 poems written by Du Fu, Li Bai, Su Dongpo, Mei Yaochen, Li Yu, Liu Zongyuan, Bai Juyi and Wang Anshi and translated them into English. I chose poems which address themes at any human being can understand and which fit in with the contemporary concerns of the of the West. For example, Liu Zongyuan wrote about the dangers of excessive logging of forests. Du Fuwas a refugee that very much chimes with Europeans at the moment. Bai Juyi wrote about social injustices (賣炭翁) and tax evasion. There are poems about love and longing, man’s interaction with nature and what life really means so I chose poems which I felt would resonate with Westerners.

I wrote an essay linking this medieval Chinese poetry with modern Western science (quantum physics). The aim of this book is to examine the common themes of a human life and conclude that, although we have different historical experiences and therefore different traditions and ways of doing things, underneath we are all the same.

龔鵬程教授：您認為歐美人士對中國人、中國社會的基本誤解是什么？

祈立天：在現代，有三個基本問題。

i)西方人把蘇聯和中國的共產主義混為一談。這意味著他們認為中國的國家是邪惡的，不能信任，它將無法提供老百姓真正需要和想要的東西。他們認為，只有通過民主和自由市場才能擁有一個繁榮和成功的社會，所以他們對中國的領導層非常不信任，認為它只是想要權力和金錢。

ii）因為西方有殖民歷史，很多人認為，隨著中國變得越來越強大，它也會走同樣的道路，尋求霸權。他們并不真正了解不同的發展道路。他們不知道，幾個世紀以來，中國擁有主宰整個亞洲的軍事和行政能力，但它從未在其傳統邊界之外擴張。換句話說，因為西方奴役了別人，所以它害怕自己被奴役。

iii)西方媒體對中國極為敵視。這有很多原因，但基本原因是西方新聞界是由資本驅動的，然后需要產生回報。關于中國的負面新聞能賣出報紙，因為它強化了上述觀點（"迎合觀眾"），并在讀者中產生了一種幸福感，因為 "我們比他們強"。

In the modern day, there are three basic problems:

i) Westerners conflate Soviet and Chinese communism. That means that they believe that the Chinese state is evil and cannot be trusted and it will not be able to providewhat really need and want. They think that the only way to have a prosperous and successful society is through democracy and free markets, so they are very distrustful of China’s leadership and think it just wants power and money.

ii) because the West has a colonial history, many people believe that as China becomes stronger and more powerful, it will also follow the same path and seek hegemony. They do not really understand the different development paths. They do not know that for centuries, China had the military and administrative capacity to dominate the whole of Asia, but it never expanded outside it traditional borders. In other words, because the West enslaved other people, it is fearful of being enslaved itself.

iii) the Western press is extremely antagonistic towards China. There are many reasons for this, but the basic reason is that the Western press is driven by capital and then need to generate returns. Negative news on China sells newspapers because it reinforces the opinions above (“playing to the gallery”) and it generates a sense of wellbeing in the readers because “we are better than them.”

龔鵬程教授：有時候，我會想：中國人似乎總在祈求別人的理解中，這是病態，還是很好的國民性？畢竟有些民族對此是不太在乎的。例如英國人，可能基本上就認為中國人不懂英國歷史、文學、宗教和生活規矩是很正常的，不因此而覺得遺憾、受傷，或因此而鄙視中國人。您覺得呢？

祈立天：我認為這不是病態，原因有二：

一、因為中國直到近代還很弱小和不發達（甚至在1977年，當華國鋒從中國派出一個考察團到歐洲時，他們對自己的發現感到非常震驚和驚奇），中國在過去四十年的整個故事是一個追趕的過程。

這意味著，中國人民"作為一個整體 "學習西方是必要的，"中國人 "學習英語也是可取的，因為這將導致更好的生活和更多的機會。

在西方沒有類似的過程，因此西方人對中國仍然相當無知。英國仍然對自己的傳統相當滿意，因為我們正從一個霸權點上衰落，而且在最近的歷史上沒有遇到過如此困難的事情，所以它沒有動機去了解其他社會，它仍然對自己的傳統感到相當安全——部分原因是它沒有意識到其挑戰的規模。

我認為，中國人對自己的文明和文化感到自豪，并希望其他人也能分享它，承認它的價值，這是非常自然的。

二、如果西方人更了解中國，就不太可能出現可能導致戰爭的錯誤。

一個明顯的例子是臺灣。很少有西方人了解臺灣的歷史，他們只是認為這是一個熟悉的故事，即中國試圖與該島發生沖突。但事實是如果他們不了解背景，就很容易犯嚴重的錯誤。

我認為由于這兩個原因，中國渴望從西方獲得更好的理解是合理且能夠理解的。事實上，這也是我每天都在努力幫助的事情。

I don’t think it is pathological at all, for two reasons:

i) Because China was extremely weak and under-developed until very recently (evenin 1977, when 華國鋒 sent an inspection group from China to Europe, they were very shocked and amazed by what they found) the whole story of China in the last forty years has been one of catch-up. That means that it was both necessary for the Chinese people ‘as-a-whole’ to study the West and also desirable for ‘Chinese-individuals’ to study English because it would lead to a better life and more opportunities. There has been no similar process in the West and therefore Westerners remain quite ignorant about China. Britain is still quite comfortable with its own traditions because we are declining from a point of hegemony and has not had to confront anything so difficult in its recent history, so it does not have a motivation to learn about other societies and it still feels quite secure about its own traditions – partly because it does not realise the scale of its challenges. I think it is very natural for Chinese people to be proud of their own civilisation and culture and want other people to share in it and recognise its value.

ii) if Westerners understand China better, there is less likely to be a mistake that could lead to a war. An obvious example is Taiwan. Very few Westerners understand the history of Taiwan and they just think that it is a familiar story of a dictatorship in China trying to invade the island, If they do jot understand the background, it is easy to make a serious mistake. I think for these two reasons, it is reasonable and understandable that China yearns for better understanding from the West. In fact, that is something that I try to help with every day.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規劃城市建設、主題園區等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。