龔鵬程x杜克-勞瑞杜｜對(duì)女人的積極歧視也應(yīng)該消除

龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者第七十六期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會(huì)，只有強(qiáng)化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰(shuí)的理論，而是每個(gè)人都應(yīng)實(shí)踐的活動(dòng)。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學(xué)研究中心”。我們會(huì)陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對(duì)話海外學(xué)者”系列文章，請(qǐng)他對(duì)話一些學(xué)界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學(xué)，會(huì)涉及多種學(xué)科。以期深山長(zhǎng)谷之水，四面而出。

Julia Duque-Lloredo （茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜）

倫敦大學(xué)學(xué)院（UCL）研究員

龔鵬程：你好。你能描述一下您的研究領(lǐng)域嗎？你認(rèn)為在您的領(lǐng)域中最令人興奮的一些進(jìn)展是什么？你的研究主要目標(biāo)是什么，你能描述一下幾個(gè)重要的應(yīng)用嗎？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：龔教授，您好。我的研究，集中在組織力學(xué)方面。我們認(rèn)為細(xì)胞是我們身體的第一個(gè)組織單位。下一級(jí)是（身體）組織，它由一組細(xì)胞組成，這些細(xì)胞通常是同類的，由不同的蛋白質(zhì)組連接在一起。有些人研究單個(gè)細(xì)胞的力學(xué)，但從力學(xué)的角度來(lái)講，我對(duì)上皮組織的整體行為感興趣。更具體地說(shuō)，我對(duì)上皮組織如何應(yīng)對(duì)斷裂的過程感興趣。

例如，在胚胎的發(fā)育過程中，組織會(huì)受到不同力源，從而不得不承受壓力和變形，這促使下一個(gè)發(fā)育階段能夠正常實(shí)現(xiàn)。另一個(gè)例子是我們的皮膚，皮膚是我們對(duì)所有的外部病原體的第一道主要保護(hù)屏障。

我很多工作都致力于了解在細(xì)胞膜下的一層的張力是什么。我所說(shuō)的這層被稱為細(xì)胞皮層，它是由不同的蛋白質(zhì)組成的網(wǎng)狀結(jié)構(gòu)，這些蛋白質(zhì)共同作用于細(xì)胞的形狀，這反過來(lái)又為它們提供了承受力量的來(lái)源。

這項(xiàng)研究已被擴(kuò)展到組織力學(xué)上。在這個(gè)層面上，必須考慮到將細(xì)胞連接在一起的第二組蛋白質(zhì)：負(fù)責(zé)在組織中傳遞力量的蛋白質(zhì)。然而，斷裂的過程是一個(gè)多尺度的問題，我們?cè)谘芯克鼤r(shí)面臨的一個(gè)巨大挑戰(zhàn)是：如何在不同的尺度（分子、細(xì)胞、組織水平）之間架起橋梁，以及有非常少的對(duì)于從理論角度對(duì)斷裂發(fā)生的非線性機(jī)制（在軟組織中）的研究。

我對(duì)這個(gè)項(xiàng)目的目標(biāo)，是了解支配上皮組織（如皮膚）斷裂過程的機(jī)械參數(shù)，同時(shí)，對(duì)其進(jìn)行生化鑒定。有幾個(gè)原因讓我覺得這真的很有趣：第一，了解并確定組織在形成傷口之前能承受多少力；第二，為了防止某些疾病，控制細(xì)胞形狀和承載力的機(jī)械會(huì)被破壞。了解機(jī)械參數(shù)和分子過程是這些事件的基礎(chǔ)，可能有助于闡明如何預(yù)防、逆轉(zhuǎn)或減少帶來(lái)的影響。

My research area focuses on tissue mechanics. We could consider that cells are the first unit of organization of our bodies. The next level of organization are tissues, which consist of group of cells, normally of the same kind, that are linked together by different groups of proteins. Some people study the mechanics of individual cells, but I am interested in the global behavior of epithelial tissues from a mechanical point of view. More specifically, I’m interested in how epithelial tissues respond to the process of fracture. For example, during the development of an embryo, tissues are subjected to different sources of force and deformation that must be withstand so that the next developmental stage can be properly achieved. Another example is our skin, which is the main first protection barrier we have against any external pathogen.

A lot of work within my field has been devoted to understanding what is the tension of a layer that underlies the membrane of cells has. This layer I am talking about is called the cortex of cells and it is a meshwork of different proteins which work together to give shape to the cells, which in turn, provides them with the sources to withstand forces. These studies have been extended to tissues mechanics. At this level, a second group of proteins involved in linking cells together must be taken into account: the ones responsible of transmitting the forces across the tissue. However, the process of fracture is a multi scale problem and one of the big challenges that we are facing to understand it is to bridge the different scales (molecular, cellular, tissue level) together with the fact that the non-linear regime at which fracture occurs (in soft tissues) has been very poorly studied from a theoretical point of view.

My goals for this project are to understand the mechanical parameters that govern the process of fracture in epithelial tissues (like the skin) together with a biochemical characterization of it. This is really interesting for different reasons: first, to understand and characterize how much force tissues can withstand before creating a wound and second, to prevent some type of illnesses where the machinery that controls the shape of the cells and is able to load force is disrupted. The understanding of what mechanical parameters and molecular processes underlie these types of events might help to shed some light on how to prevent, revert or decrease their effect.

龔鵬程：你研究中使用幾種不同的方法，例如設(shè)計(jì)細(xì)胞生物學(xué)實(shí)驗(yàn)、使用遺傳工具、圖像分析和數(shù)據(jù)分析，這令人印象深刻。你能描述一下你在研究過程中使用的最重要的方法和工具嗎？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：我想說(shuō)的是，所有這些方法對(duì)于正確理解我們研究的問題都很重要。一旦我們有了想要解決的問題，首先要做的就是設(shè)計(jì)相應(yīng)的實(shí)驗(yàn)。

我對(duì)兩種主要類型的結(jié)果感興趣。一方面，我想確定上皮組織在破裂前所能承受的力和變形。為了做到這一點(diǎn)，我們需要在一個(gè)特定的裝置中培養(yǎng)組織，使我們能夠在實(shí)驗(yàn)中測(cè)量力。同時(shí)，這個(gè)裝置上有一個(gè)攝像頭，我們可以用它來(lái)記錄組織層面上的斷裂演變。

另一方面，我想知道在細(xì)胞水平上正在發(fā)生什么。為了做到這一點(diǎn)，我們有相比之前具有更高分辨率的顯微鏡。在這種情況下，我們使用的是共焦顯微鏡，它允許我們擁有微米級(jí)的分辨率（比方說(shuō)，一個(gè)細(xì)胞的大小約為10微米），這樣我們就可以看到細(xì)胞內(nèi)發(fā)生的事情。

不僅如此，我還會(huì)做熒光顯微鏡。這意味著我們能夠觀察到細(xì)胞內(nèi)的特定蛋白質(zhì)和成分，因?yàn)檫@些成分之前已經(jīng)被貼上了熒光標(biāo)簽；用適當(dāng)波長(zhǎng)的激光照射，可以讓我們看到它們。

一旦我們收集了所謂的“原始數(shù)據(jù)”，我們就需要對(duì)其進(jìn)行分析。我們?cè)趯ふ乙恍┠Ｊ剑覀冊(cè)噲D看看它們是否遵循著某種類型的趨勢(shì)，一個(gè)特定的規(guī)律等等。一旦數(shù)據(jù)分析完了，我們就進(jìn)行統(tǒng)計(jì)測(cè)試，看看各組或各條件之間是否有任何明顯的差異。

I would say that all these methods are important to get a proper understanding of the questions we have.

Once we have the questions we want to tackle, the first thing to do is to design the experiment accordingly. In my case, I am interested in two main type of results. On the one hand, I want to determine the forces and deformations that epithelial tissues can be subjected to before they rupture. In order to do this, we need to grow the tissues in a specific set up that allows us to measure the force during the experiment. At the same time, there is a camera attached to this set up with which we can record the evolution of fracture at the tissue level. On the other hand, I want to know what is happening at the cellular level. In order to do this, we have microscopes with higher resolution than the previous one I was mentioning. In this case, we use a confocal microscope that allows us to have a resolution of micrometres (let’s say that the size of a cell is around 10 micrometres) so that we can see what is happening inside the cells. Not only this, but also I do fluorescence microscopy. What this means is that we are able to look at specific proteins and components inside the cells. This is possible because these components have been previously labelled with a fluorescent tag; shining a laser with the adequate wavelength, will allow us to look at them. Once we have collected what we call the raw data, we need to analyse it. We look for some patterns, we try to see if they follow any type of trend, a specific law, etc. Once the data is analysed, we run statistical tests to see whether or not there is any significant difference between groups or conditions.

龔鵬程：對(duì)于考慮從事細(xì)胞生物學(xué)或生物物理學(xué)的學(xué)生，最重要的技能是什么？ 你對(duì)他們有什么建議嗎？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：這個(gè)問題比較難回答。通常，我認(rèn)為需要一些生物或者物理學(xué)背景。

一般來(lái)說(shuō)，我覺得從物理、數(shù)學(xué)或工程學(xué)背景過渡到生物背景，要比其他專業(yè)背景容易一些。不過只要你對(duì)自己追求的事情，喜歡并有濃厚的興趣，就沒有什么事情是不能改變的。隨著你的進(jìn)步，你可以逐漸往其他方面發(fā)展。

以我為例，我本科專業(yè)是物理學(xué)，因?yàn)槲曳浅Ｏ矚g數(shù)學(xué)，它可以作為解決現(xiàn)實(shí)生活中問題的工具。但我也一直被醫(yī)學(xué)所吸引，所以我轉(zhuǎn)向了生物學(xué)。

我最終將這兩個(gè)學(xué)科結(jié)合起來(lái)，但這并不是我以前的計(jì)劃。當(dāng)我決定要學(xué)習(xí)物理學(xué)時(shí)，是因?yàn)閺奈腋咧欣蠋煹氖谡n方式來(lái)看，我認(rèn)為自己更象是一名物理老師，而不是生物老師。在那個(gè)時(shí)候，我總是喜歡用數(shù)學(xué)來(lái)解決問題，而不是學(xué)習(xí)生物。

我開始讀博士時(shí)，我對(duì)蒼蠅遺傳學(xué)一無(wú)所知，我是邊學(xué)邊做的。這個(gè)是關(guān)于你愿不愿意去了解你所遇到的問題。如果你有什么不懂，要么你學(xué)習(xí)，要么你問別人，要么你去和別人合作。

現(xiàn)在，我們自己提出的大多數(shù)問題都需要來(lái)自多個(gè)學(xué)科的方法來(lái)解決，所以合作成為我們做得越來(lái)越多的事情（例如，私人公司將其業(yè)務(wù)的某些部分外包，我們?nèi)ズ献鳎覀冇幸粋€(gè)共同的出版物）。最后我發(fā)現(xiàn)，大多數(shù)時(shí)候，科學(xué)家都是問題解決者。當(dāng)然，我們并不是什么都知道，但很多時(shí)候，如果我們遇到自己不知道的東西，我們會(huì)找到方法去理解它。

This is a difficult question. In general, I would say you need some type of biological/physics background. In general, I have the feeling is easier to transition from a physics/maths/engineer background towards a biological one than the other way around. However, nothing is written in gold as long as you have an avid interest in pursuing what you like to do. Then, you develop the rest as you progress. In my case, for example, I did my undergraduate in Physics, because I really liked maths, and the tools it provided to solve problems in real life. At the same time, I was always attracted to Medicine so that’s why I moved towards Biology. I’ve ended up combining both of them, but it was not something previously planned. When I decided I wanted to study Physics it was because I was seeing myself more as a Physic teacher than a Biology one just from the way my high school teachers where giving their lessons. At that time, I always preferred solving problems with maths than having to study Biology…

When I started my PhD I knew nothing about fly genetics and I learnt as I was doing it. It’s a matter of being willing to understand the questions you have. If you don’t know something, either you learn it, you ask someone else or you collaborate. Nowadays, most of the questions we pose ourselves need from a multidisciplinary approach so collaboration is something that we do more and more (as, for example, private companies outsource some part of their business, we collaborate and we have a shared publication). In the end I find that, most of the times, scientists are problem-solvers. For sure we don’t know everything, but many times, if we don’t know something on our own, we will find the way to understand it.

龔鵬程：對(duì)女科學(xué)家地位的討論越來(lái)越多。作為一名女科學(xué)家，你如何看待女科學(xué)家的角色和地位，她們具體面臨哪些挑戰(zhàn)？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：科學(xué)界的女性，面臨著大多數(shù)女性在任何其他類型的工作中所面臨的問題之一，就是她們所占據(jù)的高級(jí)職位數(shù)量很少。大多數(shù)高級(jí)職位主要由男性占據(jù)，這與歷史有直接關(guān)系，因?yàn)槲覀兞?xí)慣于在這些級(jí)別上看到男性而不是女性，最終，導(dǎo)致了改變這種情況會(huì)感覺不舒服。

平均來(lái)說(shuō)，女性在生命科學(xué)研究領(lǐng)域的水平要高于男性，而這一點(diǎn)就更加引人注目了。然而，當(dāng)你的位置越高，涉及到成為小組領(lǐng)導(dǎo)或教授時(shí)，這種情況就會(huì)倒置。這是我們社會(huì)應(yīng)該重新考慮的問題。

如今，在一些地方，我們可以看到對(duì)婦女有積極歧視 (積極歧視是指你優(yōu)待具有受保護(hù)特征的人，但不是因?yàn)樗麄兊哪芰?；這是第一步，但我們不應(yīng)該只停留在這個(gè)層面。在許多情況下，這只是為了給某個(gè)大學(xué)或機(jī)構(gòu)一個(gè)好的形象而做的事情。事情必須從更早的階段進(jìn)行改變。我們應(yīng)該從消除我們強(qiáng)加給孩子的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)化的性別角色模型開始。為什么一個(gè)女孩不能成為物理學(xué)家？為什么她不能在工作中領(lǐng)導(dǎo)一個(gè)團(tuán)隊(duì)？這一切背后的真正問題是什么？

還有一點(diǎn)需要考慮的是，從歷史上看，婦女負(fù)責(zé)照顧孩子。這一點(diǎn)與我上面解釋的并不相悖。科學(xué)是一項(xiàng)要求很高的工作，當(dāng)需要照顧孩子的時(shí)候，如果伴侶不是很愿意分擔(dān)的話，可能就會(huì)有點(diǎn)困難。然而，我相信這不應(yīng)該僅僅局限于父母，一些機(jī)構(gòu)在這方面也應(yīng)該有發(fā)言權(quán)。

I think women in science face one of the problems that most women have in any other type of job, and this is the little number of high-level positions they occupy. The fact that most of high positions are largely occupied by men is something directly related to history in the sense that we are used to rather see men than women at these levels and in the end, changing this it is uncomfortable.

This is even more striking when you realise that, on average, there is a higher level of women in life science studies than men. However, as you go higher in the hierarchy, when it comes to become a group leader/professor, this value gets inverted. This is something that we, as a society, should reconsider. Nowadays in some places we can see that there is a positive discrimination towards women; this is a very first step, but we should not remain just at that level. In many occasions it is something done just to give a good appearance to a certain university or institution. Things must change from a very early stage. We should start by removing the standardize role models that we impose to our children. Why a girl cannot become a Physicist? Why can’t she be in charge of a group of people at work? What is the real problem behind all this?

Also something to take into account which is not separated from what I’ve explained above, is the fact that women are the ones that also historically, have been the ones in charge of their children. Science is a very demanding job that, when childcare comes into place, might be a bit difficult to combine if the corresponding partner is not very willing to share it. I believe however that it should not be something just constrained to the parents, but that the institutions should have a say at this respect.

龔鵬程：你曾在西班牙、布魯塞爾、加利福尼亞工作和學(xué)習(xí)，現(xiàn)在你已經(jīng)在倫敦工作了5年。你能說(shuō)一說(shuō)你是怎么來(lái)到倫敦？你以前去過亞洲國(guó)家嗎？你會(huì)考慮在一個(gè)亞洲國(guó)家工作一段時(shí)間嗎？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：我讀博士期間，我的職位可以讓我在國(guó)外的實(shí)驗(yàn)室進(jìn)行實(shí)習(xí)和工作。我申請(qǐng)了兩個(gè)地方，一個(gè)在芝加哥，另一個(gè)在倫敦。但我覺得芝加哥有點(diǎn)遠(yuǎn)，我更愿意留在歐洲。另外，在芝加哥，我的課題是從計(jì)算角度出發(fā)去研究生物學(xué)，而在倫敦，我將使用不同的模型系統(tǒng)去做研究，為此我極為癡迷。因此，我決定來(lái)到倫敦，準(zhǔn)確地說(shuō)是來(lái)到我現(xiàn)在工作的實(shí)驗(yàn)室。

總的來(lái)說(shuō)，這是一個(gè)非常好的經(jīng)歷。實(shí)驗(yàn)室里的人對(duì)我很好，我也喜歡倫敦這座城市。我來(lái)自西班牙的馬德里，那里足夠大，但沒有倫敦那么大。在UCL實(shí)驗(yàn)室里有更多的自由，這也是我非常喜歡的。

在我博士論文完成前，我有一個(gè)很好的機(jī)會(huì)，在波士頓附近的MBL做了個(gè)為期6周的課程。我參加了不同的項(xiàng)目，并有機(jī)會(huì)認(rèn)識(shí)不同的小組和成員。其中一個(gè)是我在加州理工學(xué)院的小組。在我博士畢業(yè)后，我還考慮過申請(qǐng)?jiān)谀抢镒霾┦亢螅野l(fā)現(xiàn)加州離我的家人太遠(yuǎn)了。因此，在我完成博士學(xué)業(yè)的時(shí)，我決定至少要在研究領(lǐng)域繼續(xù)呆久一點(diǎn)，這是我還留在倫敦UCL這個(gè)實(shí)驗(yàn)室的原因。當(dāng)時(shí)我只打算呆一小段時(shí)間，結(jié)果現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)呆超過4年了。

我從來(lái)沒有去過亞洲，但我很想去看看。對(duì)我來(lái)說(shuō)，亞洲是一個(gè)很大的未知數(shù)，因?yàn)槲野l(fā)現(xiàn)它真的很大。所以，我想國(guó)家之間一定有很多差異。我想我應(yīng)該可以在一些國(guó)家工作一段時(shí)間，但不是所有的國(guó)家，也不是一直在那里工作。我不希望離西班牙很遠(yuǎn)，因?yàn)槟抢镉形业募胰恕?/p>

During my PhD, my fellowship allowed me to do an internship in a laboratory abroad. I applied to two places, one in Chicago and another one in London. At that time I found that Chicago was maybe a bit far and I rather preferred to stay in Europe (–at that time!–). Also, the topic I would be working on Chicago was developmental Biology from a computational side of view whereas in London I was going to be using a different model system, which is something that really attracted me at that time. Hence, I decided to come to London, precisely to the lab I am working at the moment.

In general, it was a really good experience. The people in the lab were very nice to me, and I liked the city. I was coming from Madrid –Spain– which is big enough but not as much as London. Here I had more freedom in the lab and it was something I really enjoyed as well. Before the end of my PhD I had the big opportunity of doing a 6-week course at the MBL an institution near Boston. I took part on different projects and had the opportunity to meet different groups. One of them was the group I was with at Caltech, just after finishing my PhD. I think I could have applied for a postdoc there but I found that California was too far away from my family. So then, by the time I was finishing my PhD, I decided I wanted to continue in research for at least a bit longer and one of my main options was this lab in London (a bit longer has been now over 4 years!).

I have never been to Asia but I would love to visit it. For me it is a big unknown as I find it really big and so, I guess there are many differences between countries. I could work for some time in some countries (not all of them for sure) but it would be for a fixed time. In the end, I don’t want to be very far away from Spain which is where my family lives.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺(tái)北，臺(tái)灣師范大學(xué)博士，當(dāng)代著名學(xué)者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學(xué)、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設(shè)、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學(xué)于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺(tái)北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現(xiàn)為中國(guó)孔子博物館名譽(yù)館長(zhǎng)、美國(guó)龔鵬程基金會(huì)主席。