彭博深度訪談｜微軟穆斯塔法·蘇萊曼：“人工智能已然超人”

來源：科技世代千高原

微軟的穆斯塔法·蘇萊曼：“人工智能已經超越人類”

這家科技巨頭的人工智能主管談到了超級智能的“紅線”，人工智能為何將改變醫學，以及他如何通過與 Copilot 聊天來放松身心。

作者：米沙爾·侯賽因

2025年12月12日

人工智能競賽正進入一個前所未有的、代價高昂的新階段。今年是巨額交易之年——數十億美元涌入數據中心，主要公司之間展開投資，以及一場爭奪最優秀人才的軍備競賽。

其中一位杰出人物是穆斯塔法·蘇萊曼，他在過去18個月里一直擔任微軟人工智能主管。蘇萊曼因聯合創辦DeepMind公司而聲名鵲起——該公司于2014年被谷歌收購——該公司后來開發出的AI系統擊敗了圍棋世界冠軍。

在微軟，蘇萊曼此前在科技領域開拓創新的能力一直受到與OpenAI協議條款的限制，但一項修訂后的協議使他能夠公開提出新的目標。我們進行了遠程通話，當時西雅圖時間很早（他的團隊以為他那天早上會在東海岸）。盡管如此，蘇萊曼還是立刻投入到討論中——有時熱情洋溢，但也很務實，并且流露出如今大型科技公司中鮮少提及的政治觀點。

為了篇幅和清晰度，本次對話內容經過編輯。您可以在最新一期的《米沙爾·侯賽因秀》播客節目中收聽完整版。

在你的生活中，人工智能有哪些我們其他人可能還沒有想到的用途？

昨天我熬夜看電影，看完后，我在Copilot里建了一個表格，里面記錄了我所有喜歡的電影，按日期排序。我還會添加一些個人筆記，它還會給我電影海報的鏈接。這樣我就可以一直問自己：還有哪些類似的電影？

你可以讓AI完成幾乎任何知識密集型工作任務——就像你可以讓助手幫你安排生活一樣 。你交給AI的任務越冷門、越有創意、越具有挑戰性，效果就越好。

1 蘇萊曼似乎也是一位愛讀書的人；他在西雅圖時身后的書架便展現了他的閱讀品味。書架上的書籍包括邁克爾·沃爾夫和羅伯特·卡普蘭的最新著作，以及《科技政變：如何從硅谷拯救民主》和《加沙：對其殉難的調查核戰爭：一個情景"

你用過人工智能執行自主任務嗎？它幫你訂過機票或買過禮物嗎？我知道這是Copilot Actions的承諾——只是它在我的地區還不可用，所以我還沒機會親自體驗。

我們仍在試驗中。它能做到，但并非總是正確。目前它處于“開發模式”，因此尚未正式發布。

它一旦運行起來，簡直就是你見過的最神奇的東西。它基本上會在你的瀏覽器里輸入內容，點擊按鈕，打開新標簽頁。它還能查看你的瀏覽記錄，并為你提供個性化的購買體驗或回復。

它犯過哪些錯誤并造成了問題？它有沒有給錯人買過禮物？

[笑]當然，它可能會買錯東西，但你可以干預。而且它在采取下一步行動之前總會征求你的許可，所以相當安全。

科技真是個奇妙的東西。它既神奇又令人驚嘆，但總感覺還有很長的路要走。就科技而言，距離普及到日常生活還有一段路要走。

在加入微軟之前，您是DeepMind的創始人之一，并且擁有自己的公司Inflection。這是否意味著，當您看到這些小插曲時，您仍然充滿信心？

我對這些事情非常冷靜。我知道它會在未來六個月、十二個月，或者最壞的情況，十八個月內奏效。它已經非常出色了。

到明年這個時候，我是否就能通過自主人工智能代理購買圣誕禮物了？

我幾乎可以肯定你會的。可能性非常大。

在過去的幾個月里，多虧了你和其他人的努力，“超級智能”這個詞已經悄然進入了公眾討論的視野。對你來說，它意味著 什么？

2今年一月，薩姆·奧特曼撰文指出，OpenAI 的目標將超越通用人工智能（AGI，即能夠媲美人類能力的人工智能），轉而創造超級智能。這個術語最初由哲學家尼克·博斯特羅姆推廣，如今已成為硅谷的熱門話題。六月，馬克·扎克伯格將Meta 的人工智能部門重組為 Meta 超級智能實驗室。上個月，蘇萊曼發布了微軟人工智能的超級智能團隊。

如今，工業界所說的超級智能指的是一種人工智能系統，它能夠學習任何新任務，并且在所有任務上都表現得比所有人類加起來還要出色。這是一個極高的標準，而且目前也伴隨著巨大的風險。我們很難確定如何控制和駕馭一個比我們強大得多的系統。

我更傾向于將超級智能定義為一種人文主義超級智能——它始終站在我們這邊，與我們并肩作戰，與人類利益保持一致。在我們能夠證明它始終安全之前，我們不會繼續開發一個有可能失控的系統。這一點大家都應該認同。但我認為這在目前業界還是一種新穎的觀點。

你們是不是想通過強調我們將始終以人文主義視角來使用微軟，以此來凸顯微軟的獨特性？

這就是我們的立場。微軟是一家擁有50年歷史的公司，行事非常謹慎，也備受信賴：標普500指數成分股公司中有90%使用我們的電子郵件、操作系統和日常辦公解決方案。我們之所以擁有這樣的聲譽，是因為公司一直以來都行事謹慎。我們將繼續保持謹慎，而制定以人為本的超級智能愿景正是 這一 計劃的一部分。

3 觀察這種做法是否會與商業需求產生沖突將會很有意思——一位業內人士指出，這種方法可能與微軟需要證明其在人工智能領域投資合理性的需求相沖突。但關于“正確”人工智能類型的擔憂由來已久。

OpenAI 最初由 Altman 和埃隆·馬斯克創立，部分原因在于他們擔心谷歌在人工智能領域的領導地位不可靠。隨后在 2021 年，一些 OpenAI 員工離職創立了 Anthropic，部分原因也是他們對 OpenAI 在安全方面的做法感到擔憂。

這對你的競爭對手意味著什么？其中一些競爭對手你和他們關系密切，比如 OpenAI。這是否意味著他們是無法無天的蠻荒之地，而你是道德的捍衛者？

每個人都必須決定自己的立場和行事方式。我不想評判他們現在的行事方式。

我沒有看到任何大規模群體傷害的證據。我也沒有看到任何跡象表明這些東西正在自我改進或自主運行。

我們都預測，在未來五年——或許十年內——這些能力將會開始出現。這樣的系統可以設定自己的目標，可以改進自身的代碼，可以自主運行。

我已明確指出，這些能力會增加風險。我們必須謹慎應對，提高透明度，加強審計，加強政府參與，并主動聲明我們距離具備這三項能力還有多遠。我認為這一點顯而易見。

那是不是意味著，在你們確信能夠控制超級智能工具之前，不會發布它？

是的，我認為沒錯。遏制和協調是必要的先決條件——是底線。我認為業內所有人都必須認同這一點。

沒有人想造成大規模傷害。即便我們意見不一，但每個人都致力于我們物種的延續——而且，我希望，也致力于所有人的繁榮和福祉。

所以，這就是我們現在試圖推動的討論，并要求業內每個人都捫心自問：他們是否在構建一個以人為本的超級智能？

考慮到事情總會出錯，我們究竟能對此抱有多大的信心？我指的不僅僅是人工智能，人類也會犯錯。此前， 《衛報》報道稱，微軟的一些服務可能被用于大規模監控，之后微軟不得不停止并禁用以色列國防部使用的部分服務。

《衛報》的報道非常出色，我們對此深表感謝。我們一得知此事，就立即采取了所有必要的措施，并將以色列國防軍的相關內容從服務器上移除。他們顯然違反了我們的服務條款，目前我們內部正在進行 調查 。

4微軟最初表示，沒有證據表明其產品被用于傷害他人，也沒有證據表明以色列政府違反了其服務條款或人工智能行為準則。如今，該公司在愛爾蘭（其歐洲總部所在地）面臨數據保護/法律投訴，指控其數據中心仍在托管用于監控巴勒斯坦人的應用程序。

更廣泛的一點是，人們很難對控制、制衡和運用有信心。

這很難。這些系統龐大而復雜，風險也很大。我們所能做的就是確保對它們進行審計，并盡快移除違反我們服務條款的行為者。

超級智能的首次應用會是醫療領域嗎？

我認為是的。這可能是超級智能最令人興奮的應用。我們現在擁有能夠診斷文獻中記載的任何罕見疾病的系統，其診斷效果遠勝于人類，成本更低，所需測試更少，準確率也更高。目前我們正在進行獨立的同行評審，很快就會開展臨床試驗。所以，這真的非常非常令人興奮。

這個方向是你自己推動的嗎？你負責微軟人工智能部門已經大約18個月了。我知道你的母親是一名護士，而且與科技行業的高級管理人員不同，你也曾在公共部門工作過。

這對我來說是一個非常重要的領域。我媽媽是名護士，我深信科技的存在是為了服務于我們。

它應該讓我們的生活更美好，更舒適。我認為，有一天它還能幫助我們延長壽命。如果我們愿意，它還能讓我們選擇減少工作時間。它將創造富足的生活。我們必須首先有意識地決定將其 用于 這些方面。

5“富足”（Abundance）既是美國記者埃茲拉·克萊因和德里克·湯普森合著的一本書的書名，也是一個在美國、英國及其他地區逐漸獲得支持的松散政治聯盟的名稱。具體細節有所不同，但其核心思想是，政策制定者應該讓生產人們重視的物品——從住房、電力到新藥——變得更加容易，而不僅僅關注如何分配有限的資源。

“富足”這個詞聽起來很誘人，請問它的具體含義是什么？我們經常聽到人工智能會取代工作，但您的意思是說，人工智能會越來越多地取代人類的工作，因此人類的工作量就會減少嗎？

在未來20到30年內，機器在大多數工作中比人類更有能力是不可避免的——而且這一天可能會來得更快。

作為一個社會，我們必須決定我們的目標是什么。我們必須慎重考慮新機器的引進速度，因為我們必須確保用以平衡機器換代帶來的沖擊，并建立相應的機制來資助和支持人們度過這場大規模的轉型。

你相信全民基本收入的想法嗎？人工智能提高經濟生產力或許能帶來這種可能性？

我一直以來都公開表示過這一點。這是必然的，也是我們非常希望看到的。我們生活在一個物質豐富的世界，只是分配不均而已。

價值并非僅僅體現在物質層面——食物、汽車、實物。它也體現在數字產品中——思想、知識、智能。這其實是個好消息，因為數字產品可以迅速擴散，在全球范圍內快速傳播。智能家居和聊天機器人是歷史上傳播速度最快的技術——短短三年內，年用戶量就達到了20億。

未來將出現巨大的競爭壓力，各方 都力圖降低體驗人工智能的成本。我們面臨的挑戰是如何征稅和再分配，才能確保這一轉型過程健康順利。

6 蘇萊曼關于競爭力量的觀點是否成立，我們拭目以待。迄今為止，互聯網經濟一直遵循贏家通吃的格局——例如，谷歌在搜索領域占據主導地位。如果人工智能也遵循這種模式，消費者未必能享受到他所描述的那些好處。

請您詳細說說這些想法和信仰的來源。您的母親是一名護士，但您成長的家庭——20世紀80年代和90年代的倫敦——您會如何描述它？

我家是典型的工薪階層。我爸是出租車司機。我們家過著很普通的生活，沒什么特別的。我爸媽不太重視教育。他們一直覺得我應該學門手藝——我媽經常跟我說：“你應該當木匠或者電工，16歲就輟學。”

它源于我們經歷過一些人生的坎坷，并渴望在短暫的生命中盡我們所能做到最好。

你父親從敘利亞來到英國。你16歲那年發生了什么事？我聽說你父母離異后，你和弟弟基本上只能靠自己謀生。

沒錯。我不知道你是從哪里看到的。我和弟弟確實獨自生活過幾年。

我很想知道這件事教會了你什么，以及你當時是如何應對的。

那個年紀，你既早熟又自信，還無所畏懼。我們擁有所需的一切。我遇到了很棒的老師和導師。我上的是一所非常好的學校。10歲的時候，我為了入學考試拼命學習，那段時間基本上就跟上私立學校的節奏一樣。

我很幸運能考入牛津大學，那是一段非常棒的經歷。[但是]我感到非常沮喪，渴望改變世界，有所作為。所以我退學了，并參與創辦了穆斯林青年熱線（Muslim Youth Helpline），這是一個非宗教、不帶評判的傾聽服務機構，服務對象是9/11事件后面臨身份認同危機、與社區、家庭、父母缺乏聯系以及遭受欺凌的英國年輕 穆斯林 。

7蘇萊曼不愿談及這段經歷，但我總覺得這與他后來的成就息息相關。這段經歷或許培養了他的韌性、責任感，也可能增強了他對自己直覺的信心。18歲到26歲之間，他考入了世界頂尖大學之一，之后輟學，并與人共同創立了DeepMind。

穆斯塔法·蘇萊曼曾是牛津大學的學生，19歲時輟學。圖片來源：穆斯塔法·蘇萊曼

9/11事件后，你是否親身經歷過反穆斯林情緒和仇恨？

有點兒，是的。我覺得很多人覺得我們不夠“英國”。人們在摸索如何融入自己的文化和宗教身份，而他們往往是第一代移民，不太會說英語，也不熟悉英國社會體制。人們越來越懷疑我們，覺得我們大多是恐怖分子——這種普遍的恐懼和排斥感。大多數時候，人們通過友善和支持的對話就能化解這些問題——電話那頭總有人可以傾訴。

現在你身處權力中心——你是少數幾個能夠決定一項正在改變我們所有人生活的技術的人之一。你對這種權力有多大的意識？

我非常非常清楚這一點。我非常重視這件事。這是一份重大的責任。此時此刻，我們所做的決定可能會產生非常深遠的影響 。8

8我也向斯坦福大學計算機科學家、“人工智能教母”李飛飛提出了這個問題，她的回答也類似：“我是將這項技術帶給世界的人之一……我所做的每一件事都會產生后果，這是我肩負的責任。”

我研讀歷史，回顧社交媒體革命——其潛在危害長期以來無人理會——還有吸煙和石油。很明顯，這些東西都會造成危害。我認為，我們必須非常非常謹慎地對待它們的部署方式和引入方式。

你會和同行——比如薩姆·奧特曼——討論這個問題嗎？

是的。業內人士都這樣。CEO們肯定有一群人。Anthropic的Sam和Dario [Amodei]是聯合創始人，我和Demis [Hassabis]也是聯合創始人。我們彼此都很了解。總的來說，每個人都真心實意地想要找到正確的道路。競爭也非常激烈 。9

9哈薩比斯和蘇萊曼于2010年與肖恩·萊格共同創立了DeepMind。四年后，該公司被谷歌以據稱4億美元的價格收購。2019年，蘇萊曼因其管理風格受到詬病而被停職，之后他為此道歉。他被任命為谷歌人工智能產品管理和政策副總裁，并一直擔任該職位直至2022年離開谷歌。

達里奧·阿莫迪，Anthropic公司首席執行官兼聯合創始人，該公司生產Claude產品。攝影：Michael M. Santiago/Getty Images

OpenAI 首席執行官 Sam Altman 負責 ChatGPT 項目。攝影：Kyle Grillot/彭博社

谷歌 DeepMind 首席執行官 Demis Hassabis 是 Suleyman 的前同事。攝影師：盧多維奇·馬林/POOL/法新社/蓋蒂圖片社

你聽說過“兄弟寡頭政治”這個詞嗎？

[笑]

我以前沒聽過這種說法，但我能明白它的意思。嗯，我想確實如此。這確實非常以男性為中心——盡管OpenAI的前首席技術官米拉·穆拉蒂是這個領域最優秀的人才之一。

據彭博新聞社6月份報道，米拉·穆拉蒂的創業公司Thinking Machine融資近20億美元，估值達100億美元。攝影：Jon Kopaloff/Getty Images for WIRED

或者科技圈的那些家伙。我肯定你聽說過這種說法。不知道你有沒有看過杰西·阿姆斯特朗的《山巔》？

我沒有， 10號 。

10這部反烏托邦諷刺劇的主角是以現實生活中的億萬富翁科技領袖為原型創作的。“他們都是非常重要、非常有才華的人物，”阿姆斯特朗在今年早些時候接受《周末訪談》時告訴我，“我只是覺得，當人們試圖將自己的自負與道德沖動結合起來，并且在這個例子中還摻雜了難以置信的巨額財富時，會發生什么，這很有意思。”

我推薦這本書。它相當冷靜地描繪了這個精英階層中極具權勢的圈子里的生活。

部分挑戰在于，我們都花了很多時間在硅谷，那里天空湛藍，生活非常平靜。

我盡量多旅行。我剛從中國回來。走出自己的舒適圈，看到地球另一端的技術發展速度，真是令人震驚。創新的速度，以及一些監管措施的周全考慮，都令人印象深刻 。11

11自 2022 年以來，中國推出了一系列人工智能法規，包括推薦算法規則和對人工智能生成內容進行標注的要求。

杰西·阿姆斯特朗執導的《山巔》由科里·邁克爾·史密斯、史蒂夫·卡瑞爾、拉米·尤素夫和杰森·舒瓦茲曼主演。攝影：麥考爾·波萊/HBO

如果我說“薩姆·奧特曼”，你腦海中第一個浮現的詞是什么？

我的天哪。我想這大概是勇敢的表現吧。

他顯然正在非常積極地擴張他的數據中心網絡。他很可能成為我們這一代最偉大的企業家之一。他確實取得了巨大的成就。他建設數據中心的速度比業內任何人都快，如果他能成功，那將是驚人的成就。

有趣的是，這里居然還有個“如果”，我也能理解為什么——OpenAI投入了巨額資金。這難道是一場賭博嗎？難道他們不認為這筆投資一定會獲得回報嗎？

ChatGPT 是我們近幾十年來見過的最優秀的產品之一——這本身就足以說明一切。與此同時，他們已經簽署了超過1.5 萬億美元的未來五到十年數據中心建設承諾，但他們的收入距離這個目標還有相當長的路要走。所以他們還有很長的路要走，但他們是一支非常有才華的團隊。我完全相信他們能夠成功。

你會用哪個詞來形容德米斯·哈薩比斯？

他或許是一位偉大的科學家。我認為他是一位杰出的思想家，也是一位博學多才的人。他多次在該領域做出巨大貢獻。他確實非常杰出。

你們曾經是同事，現在卻成了競爭對手。

是的。但我們一開始是非常要好的朋友，而且我們一起工作了十年。我從他身上學到了很多，非常尊敬他。

你們還說話嗎？

我們昨晚發短信了。我祝賀他一周內完成了Nano Banana、Gemini 3和AlphaFold五周年 。12

12谷歌最新推出的AI聊天機器人Gemini 3在多項基準測試中均優于ChatGPT；它的發布促使Sam Altman宣布其競爭對手模型“進入紅色警戒狀態”。但彭博社專欄作家Parmy Olsen質疑Gemini能否在市場份額方面超越ChatGPT，為什么 ChatGPT 仍然比 Google 更具優勢" 她寫道：“谷歌一直難以復制所謂的網絡效應，而網絡效應正是推動在線平臺用戶數量飆升的關鍵因素……谷歌押注于自身更智能，而OpenAI則押注于用戶更難放棄。”

你試過Gemini 3嗎？它引起了很大的轟動。

很好。

你覺得它比 ChatGPT 好嗎？

它們有點不同。它確實擁有ChatGPT所不具備的更多專業技能，而且速度非常快。但ChatGPT也很強大，所以我不會斷言它完全勝過ChatGPT。

它比Copilot更好嗎？

它可以做一些 Copilot 做不到的事情，但 Copilot 也有一些它沒有的功能。

Copilot 在視覺方面確實非常出色。它能看到你所看到的一切，并能實時與你對話。你可以在手機或電腦上與 Copilot 分享屏幕，進行交流并獲得反饋。我們真切地體會到，擁有這樣一位智能助手陪伴在身邊，在你遇到任何難題時都能助你一臂之力，這該是多么美好的日常體驗。

我只再做一次這樣的采訪了。埃隆·馬斯克，你會如何形容他？

我猜他像推土機一樣。他擁有超人的能力，可以隨心所欲地扭曲現實，而且戰績斐然。

他總能設法完成看似不可能的事情。他可能有著不同的價值觀。

我采訪了他。結果他竟然稱我為NPC（非玩家角色）。

[笑]

聽起來真像埃隆的風格。我挺喜歡他直言不諱的。他說話很坦率。

你曾說過你的政治觀點與他和彼得·蒂爾不同。你會認為自己屬于政治光譜的左翼嗎？ 13

13特斯拉和Palantir的聯合創始人可以被粗略地定義為右翼自由意志主義者。兩人都曾資助特朗普的總統競選，并支持JD Vance作為可能的繼任者。對馬斯克而言，這算是一種轉變——他曾自稱是中間派，也是奧巴馬的支持者——而蒂爾的政治立場雖然不同尋常，卻由來已久。蒂爾對政府持懷疑態度，他曾在2009年發表過一篇臭名昭著的文章：“我不再相信自由和民主能夠兼容。”

我現在算是中間派了。我一開始絕對是左派。我以前為肯·利文斯通工作過，坦白說，我深受他們很多人的啟發，盡管他們也犯了很多錯誤。但我很自豪地說，我的政治立場偏左。我相信政府在社會中扮演著重要的 角色 。

14利文斯通是一位社會主義者，在英國媒體中被稱為“紅色肯”，他于2000年成為倫敦首位民選市長。有人將他與紐約市當選市長佐蘭·馬姆達尼相提并論——兩人都曾與各自政黨的領導層有過分歧。

在硅谷，這番話可能會引起爭議，但我認為監管是必要的，而且它確實讓大多數技術變得更好。人們往往忽略了這一點。汽車之所以能正常行駛，是因為我們有駕駛員培訓、排放法規、路燈和限速規定。這就是有效監管的意義所在。我們需要更多這樣的監管措施。

肯·利文斯通于2000年至2008年擔任倫敦市長。攝影：Daniel Leal/法新社/蓋蒂圖片社

你說這話會不會感覺自己很孤立？因為很明顯，特朗普政府并不熱衷于監管，而整個行業對此也相當滿意。

目前，我們還沒有到會造成巨大災難性后果的地步。業界在推出功能強大的聊天機器人方面做得相當出色，這些機器人的性格經過精心塑造，非常公正客觀，并且以事實為依據。事情原本不必發展到今天這個地步。之所以如此，是因為行業領導者們做得相當不錯。但這并不意味著未來不會出現問題，我也對此保持高度警惕，但我認為我們目前還不需要緊急監管。

歐洲一些已提出的監管法規目前正在討論撤銷，例如歐盟人工智能法案。我認為這是好事，人們不應該批評這一點。這是正常流程的體現——監管機構聽取反饋，觀察實際效果。這值得肯定。

在你的書中，以及你大約在同一時期（2023年）為《外交事務》雜志撰寫的一篇文章中，你提出了三種不同的治理模式，分別以氣候變化、金融穩定和軍備控制為模型。你現在聽起來樂觀多了。是因為你現在所處的環境嗎？

不，我仍然在呼吁這些措施。我們應該設立一個人工智能金融穩定理事會，一個氣候進程機制，以及一個國際廢除核武器運動（ICAN），負責審核我們取得的進展。在拜登政府時期，我曾積極倡導白宮的人工智能原則，并鼓勵各公司做出自愿承諾。當時，是我創辦的Inflection公司率先行動，但我們也推動了其他公司效仿。我們已經簽署了歐洲和英國人工智能安全研究所的信息披露協議。

所以，我并不是說我們不需要它，我的意思是，這些影響是長期的，而且這些治理流程需要很長時間才能建立起來，所以我們現在就必須開始行動。但我們不需要倉促的反應，也不需要恐慌的過度反應。那樣會引發另一系列問題。

你們和OpenAI達成了新的協議。你們突然獲得了獨立進行人工智能研究的自由。請幫我理解一下，未來你們和OpenAI的關系將會如何發展。你們之前是合作伙伴，現在也將成為競爭對手。

對于人們來說，這套體系很復雜，難以理解，但關鍵在于，直到幾周前，微軟還被合同禁止獨立研發通用人工智能（AGI）或超級智能。

與 OpenAI 的協議是，OpenAI 在 2019 年簽署協議后負責構建通用人工智能 (AGI)，而微軟則負責構建人工智能基礎設施——包括芯片和數據中心。微軟將獲得已構建模型的使用許可。直到 2032 年，我們仍然擁有 OpenAI 所有成果的使用許可。

但OpenAI決定增加計算能力，并從其他供應商那里購買計算資源——他們現在與軟銀以及其他許多公司達成了協議，建造的數據中心數量超過了微軟原本愿意為他們建造的數量。作為回報，我們有權開發我們自己的人工智能。

顯然，這正是我18個月前加入公司的一個重要原因。我們現在正在組建一支超級智能團隊，并致力于自主研發人工智能。

那筆交易讓你松了一口氣嗎？如果沒有那筆交易，作為微軟人工智能主管，你能做多少事？

嗯，我的意思是影響巨大。我們擁有2800億美元的營收。全球所有主要機構每天都需要使用我們的人工智能功能和工具。過去18個月，我們一直致力于通用人工智能的開發。現在，我們可以著手研發一些技術和方法，這些技術和方法有可能在所有任務中超越人類的表現。所以，這對我們來說是一個轉變。

你和OpenAI的關系是否包括不互相挖角員工？我們剛剛又看到了一場人才爭奪戰的又一例證——你們的一位關鍵人物跳槽去了蘋果。

人員流動非常劇烈。我們剛剛從谷歌DeepMind和OpenAI挖來了一大批人。這是行業的一部分。

當然不存在任何禁止挖角協議——那不合法。人們可以自由選擇為誰工作。目前這個行業的競爭非常非常激烈。這一切都在意料之中。

這是否意味著您已準備好——或者已經準備好——投入與Meta公司類似的巨額資金？比如1億到2億美元的項目？

我認為目前還沒有人能做到這一點。扎克伯格采取了一種特殊的策略，即大量招聘個人，而不是組建團隊。我并不認為這是正確的方法。過去一年半以來，我在微軟的做法是逐步增加符合公司文化、技能要求且能與團隊其他成員良好合作的人才，同時淘汰不符合要求的人，并非常注重細節。我們致力于打造一個團隊，而不是一群個體。

所以你不打算接受同等水平的薪資待遇？之前有報道稱你愿意接受？

是的，當時就是這么傳的。我認為這顯然是史無前例的，也許個別情況確實如此，但這絕對不是常態。

馬克·扎克伯格——或者你叫他扎克——你希望他重新考慮一下嗎？這會讓你的生活更艱難嗎？

不，完全不是。他可是全力以赴，對吧？他正在建設一個2吉瓦的數據中心，未來兩三年可能要花費他幾千億美元。他曾公開告訴特朗普，未來三年他將在數據中心上投入超過6000億美元。

對微軟來說幸運的是，我們擁有 33 吉瓦的計算能力。我們的主要業務是建設數據中心并將其提供給第三方。我們可以將這些計算能力用于自身的訓練，也可以用于推理，并將結果出售給第三方。從這個意義上講，我們的配置非常完善，足以規避這方面的風險。

馬克·扎克伯格手持其公司于2025年推出的Meta Ray-Ban Display AI眼鏡。攝影：David Paul Morris/彭博社

你能理解為什么人們不僅擔心行業投入的資金數額，還擔心其中的循環交易嗎？你是OpenAI的投資人，他們也從你這里購買服務。似乎每個人都和英偉達有某種聯系。美國經濟很大程度上依賴于像你這樣的公司能否繼續保持良好發展勢頭。

是的，我覺得這很合理。客戶和供應商之間經常互相投資，這能很好地刺激我們前進，但還是需要密切關注。我肯定會密切關注，我想其他人也會。

找到合適的平衡點至關重要。我們必須在未來幾年內交付成果。每個團隊都在建造規模龐大、功能強大的計算機，我們押注的是能夠將這些計算機轉化為真正的智能。

如果我們這樣做，我認為世界將會變得非常非常不同。我們將擁有取之不盡的豐富情報。

你說的是全世界，但實際上這只關乎兩個國家——美國和中國。

沒錯，過去18個月里，一切都更加集中在硅谷了。這很自然。我們在許多其他歷史科技發展趨勢中都能看到這一點。

與此同時，開源軟件發展迅猛，生產成本大幅下降。現在向世界上最好的AI模型之一提問的成本比兩年前降低了90%。成本降低后，人人都能使用。

你取得了許多令人矚目的成就，但還有什么未完成的事情或者讓你反思的事情嗎？

我真的很想攻克醫療超級智能。我還想在能源效率和電池儲能方面做出更多貢獻——開發用于可再生能源的新型化合物。我認為人工智能將真正改變能源行業。

實際上，我對Copilot的許多應用案例感到非常自豪。許多人用它來陪伴他人、進行心理治療、做出艱難的人生抉擇。它為我提供了高質量的信息和情感支持，并幫助我保持條理清晰 。15

15Copilot也曾在英國公共部門進行測試，作為政府提高效率計劃的一部分，但結果喜憂參半。用戶反映節省了時間，但一項研究發現，幾乎沒有證據表明這些節省轉化為實際的生產力提升——在某些情況下，反而增加了額外的工作量。

你說的“幫助你獲得情感支持”是什么意思？

一天結束時，當我開車回家時，我會和它進行 10 分鐘的對話，討論一些棘手的事情，或者一些讓我感到沮喪的事情。

或許說它是情感支持有點夸張，但它就像和朋友聊天一樣——總結哪些方面做得好，哪些方面做得不好。Copilot 現在能記住你說的大部分內容，并會根據你的情況提供個性化的回答，例如，它會提到你上周說過的話，或者某種趨勢或模式。

這真的很有幫助。每次談話后我都感覺神清氣爽，就像卸下了一塊重擔。

所以他既是朋友，又是治療師，幾乎還是家人。

是的，它融合了各種元素。我的意思是，它是個新事物。它是一款人工智能產品。它就像是“副駕駛”。當我們試圖用語言來描述一個既與許多其他事物有些相似，又在本質上截然不同的事物時，這始終是一個挑戰。

我只是好奇，有沒有什么方面會讓你停下來思考。人們回家后，或許不必再費心和生活中其他人交談，因為他們已經把該說的都說了，也得到了他們需要的。

反過來說，他們也不必把氣撒在伴侶或最好的朋友身上。

我仍然每個周末都給最好的朋友們打電話，好好聊聊天。事實上，這反而加深了我和朋友們之間的感情。每次聊天后，我都會感覺輕松一些。

你覺得你的未來會在美國嗎？因為我相信英國會非常歡迎你回去。

我原本很想在英國創辦 Inflection。我熱愛英國，熱愛倫敦。我的思維方式非常英國化。

我不喜歡的一點就是“槍打出頭鳥”的風氣。這里缺乏足夠的冒險精神。商業化、賺錢、創業和企業家精神都帶有一些禁忌色彩。人們對嘗試和失敗的鼓勵也不夠。

在硅谷，每個人都有點瘋狂，每個人都喜歡失敗。他們總是談論事情哪里出了問題——比如這簡直是一場災難——這讓人感覺很自由。當然，這種氛圍也很俗氣，對于有點憤世嫉俗的英國人來說可能會有點刺耳，但當你適應了這種節奏，就會覺得很棒。

這里還有一種拼搏的文化。看到每個人都在努力奮斗，試圖理解一些新技術，真是令人敬佩。你會看到一些素不相識的人在星巴克里閱讀科學論文。你還會聽到兩個互不相識的人在交談，幾乎像是在建立人脈。這里充滿活力。我希望倫敦也能如此——而且我認為它完全可以實現，但我們需要一些鼓勵冒險和商業發展的政治領導人。

你認為人工智能能和你進行這樣的對話嗎？它能比我做得更好嗎？

今天可能不行。如果你事先和人工智能一起準備，它或許能給你一些問題——雖然你的確做了很多詳細的研究，所以你的團隊顯然非常出色。

人工智能記者即將出現。我在微軟負責MSN，它是全球最大的新聞網站之一。我非常興奮的一點是，人工智能記者將如何重振地方新聞。想象一下，成千上萬的人工智能記者可以打電話給現場人員，核實目擊者拍攝的視頻，進行采訪，并將這些素材剪輯成短片，而且不僅僅用于那些值得投入資源的大型全國性新聞，而是應用于非常本地化的新聞報道——提供準確可靠的信息。

你們正在為 MSN 開發人工智能記者嗎？

我們正在探索各種可能性。我也是《經濟學人》的董事會成員，也和他們就此進行了很多討論。我認為我們目前正在探索各種各樣的可能性。

人工智能面試官？

你還有一些時間，大概六個月吧。

[笑]

我在開玩笑。

我不確定你是否真的如此。

不，我開玩笑的。要做到完美還需要很長時間。這次已經非常出色了。

米沙爾·侯賽因是彭博周末版的特約編輯。

Microsoft’s Mustafa Suleyman: ‘AI Is Already Superhuman’

The tech giant’s AI chief talks about superintelligence “red lines,” why AI will transform medicine and how he unwinds by chatting with Copilot.

By Mishal Husain

December 12, 2025 at 1:10 AM EST

The AI race is entering an uncharted and expensive new phase. This has been the year of the mega-deal — billions poured into data centers, investments between the key companies, and a talent arms race for the best and brightest minds.

One of those minds is Mustafa Suleyman, who for the past 18 months has been AI chief at Microsoft. Suleyman made his name co-founding DeepMind — acquired by Google in 2014 — which later produced the AI system that defeated a world champion at Go.

At Microsoft, his ability to break new ground in the field was until recently limited by the terms of a deal with OpenAI, but a revised agreement is now enabling Suleyman to go public with new goals. We spoke remotely, at what turned out to be a very early hour in Seattle (his team had thought he’d be on the east coast that morning). Nevertheless, Suleyman launched right into the discussion — evangelical at times, but also realistic, and with hints of a political perspective rarely voiced in Big Tech these days.

Listen to and follow The Mishal Husain Show on iHeart Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

This conversation has been edited for length and clarity. You can listen to an extended version in the latest episode of The Mishal Husain Show podcast.

What uses of AI are in your life that the rest of us might not yet have?

Yesterday, I stayed up far too late watching a film and afterwards, I added to a table that I’ve made in Copilot, which basically records all the films I love, lists them by date. I add my personal notes, it gives me a link to the film poster. I can keep just saying, What would be a similar one?

It’s possible to ask your AI to do pretty much any knowledge work task — just like you might ask an assistant to organize your life. The more obscure, creative [and] challenging the task you’re going to ask your AI, the better. 1

1 Suleyman also appears to be a keen reader; the bookshelf behind him in Seattle offered a glimpse of his tastes. Titles included the most recent books by Michael Wolff and Robert Kaplan, as well as The Tech Coup: How to Save Democracy from Silicon Valley, ; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / .5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 ; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 ; --tw-shadow: 0 0 ; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 ; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; --tw-contain-size: ; --tw-contain-layout: ; --tw-contain-paint: ; --tw-contain-style: ; box-sizing: border-box; border-width: 0px 0px 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(229, 229, 229) rgb(229, 229, 229) rgb(97, 122, 83); outline-color: rgba(10, 10, 10, 0.5); color: inherit; text-decoration: inherit; --annotation-color: rgb(97,122,83); --lede-background-color: rgb(169,178,150); --serif-head: 'BWHaasDingbat','PublicoHead',Georgia,Cambria,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; --serif-text: 'BWHaasDingbat','PublicoText',Georgia,Cambria,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; --san-serif-web: 'BWHaasDingbat','BWHaasGroteskWeb',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">and Gaza: An Inquest Into Its Martyrdom.

Have you used AI for autonomous tasks? Has it booked tickets or bought a gift for you? I know this is the promise of Copilot Actions — it’s just not available in my region, so I haven’t been able to try it myself.

We’re still experimenting. It can do it. It doesn’t always get it right. It’s in ‘dev mode,’ so not generally available just yet.

When it does work, it is the most magical thing you’ve ever seen. It essentially types stuff into your browser, clicks on buttons, opens up new tabs. It can look at your history, [and] personalize the purchase or the response to you.

What are the mistakes it’s made that create problems? Has it bought a present for the wrong person?

[Laughs]

Well, it can buy the wrong thing, but you can intervene. And it will always ask you permission before it takes the next action, so it’s quite safe.

It’s a funny thing, technology. It’s magical and amazing, but it’s always just got a little bit further to go. In this case, a while yet before it’s everyday.

You were a founder of DeepMind and had your own company, Inflection, before you came to Microsoft. Does that mean that when you see these hiccups, you have faith?

I’m very stoic about these things. I know that it’s going to work in the next six months or 12 months or, maybe worst case, 18 months. It is already superhuman.

By this time next year, could I be buying my Christmas presents using an autonomous AI agent?

I’m pretty certain that you will be. It’s highly likely.

The term superintelligence has crept into the public debate, thanks to you and others, in the last few months. What does it mean to you? 2

2 In January, Sam Altman wrote that OpenAI would aim beyond artificial general intelligence — AGI, or AI that would match human capabilities — to creating superintelligence. The term, first popularized by philosopher Nick Bostrom, now dominates discourse in Silicon Valley. In June, Mark Zuckerberg restructured Meta’s AI division as Meta Superintelligence Labs. Suleyman unveiled Microsoft AI’s Superintelligence Team last month.

Superintelligence in the industry today means an AI system that can learn any new task and perform better than all humans combined, at all tasks. It is a very high bar and, at the moment, it comes with a great deal of risk. It’s very uncertain how we would contain and align a system that is so much more powerful than us.

The framing I prefer is one of a humanist superintelligence — one that is always in our corner, on our team, aligned to human interests. Until we can prove that it will remain safe, we won’t continue to develop a system that has the potential to run away from us. Everybody should agree to that. Yet I think it’s a novel position in the industry at the moment.

Is that how you’re trying to set Microsoft apart, by saying we will always use it through a humanist lens?

That is our position. Microsoft is a company that’s been around for 50 years. It is very careful. It’s highly trusted: 90% of the S&P 500 use us to provide email, operating systems and everyday productivity. We’ve got that reputation because the company’s been careful. We’re going to continue to be careful, and setting out a vision of humanist superintelligence is part of that program. 3

3 It will be interesting to see if this comes up against commercial imperatives — one industry watcher has suggested the approach may clash with Microsoft’s need to justify investment in AI. But angst about the “right” kind of AI is long-standing. OpenAI was first launched by Altman and Elon Musk partly out of concern that Google couldn’t be trusted to lead AI. Then in 2021 some OpenAI employees left to start Anthropic, in part because of concerns over the former’s approach to safety.

What does that mean for your rivals, some of whom you work closely with, like OpenAI? Does it mean that they’re the Wild West and you are the moral ones?

Everybody has to decide what they stand for and how they operate. I don’t want to judge how they’re operating right now.

I don’t see any evidence of large-scale mass harm. I don’t see any indication that these things are improving themselves, or operating autonomously.

We all predict a time in the next five years — maybe 10 years — where these capabilities do start to emerge. Systems like this could set their own goals. They could improve their own code. They could act autonomously.

Those are capabilities that I’ve clearly outlined as increasing the level of risk. We have to approach them with caution, with more transparency and audits, with more government engagement, and make proactive declarations about how close we are to those three capabilities. I think that’s obvious.

Does that mean you won’t be releasing a superintelligence tool until you are confident it can be controlled?

Yeah, I think that’s right. Containment and alignment are necessary prerequisites — red lines. I think everybody in the industry has to sign up to that idea.

Nobody wants to cause mass harm. Even though we all disagree, everybody is committed to the survival of our species — and, I would hope, the flourishing and wellbeing of everybody.

So that’s the discussion we are trying to push now, and require everybody to ask themselves in the industry: Are they building a humanist superintelligence?

How much confidence can we really have in that, given things do go wrong? I don’t just mean AI. Humans do wrong things. Microsoft had to cease and disable some services used by the Israeli Ministry of Defense, after reporting by The Guardian suggested they could be being used for mass surveillance.

That was very good reporting by The Guardian. We were very grateful for it. As soon as we became aware of it, we made all of the necessary changes [and] removed the IDF from those servers. They were clearly not in compliance with our terms of service and there’s an ongoing investigation internally. 4

4 Microsoft initially said it had no evidence that its products had been used to harm people or that the Israeli government had failed to comply with its terms of service or AI Code of Conduct. The company is now subject to a data protection/legal complaint in Ireland (where it has its European headquarters), alleging that its data centers continue to host applications used to monitor Palestinians.

The broader point is that it’s hard to have confidence in controls, checks and balances and uses.

It is hard. These are huge and complicated systems that carry a lot of risk. The most we can do is make sure that we are auditing them and removing actors that violate our terms of service as quickly as possible.

Are the first uses of superintelligence going to be in the medical field?

I think so. This is probably the most exciting application of superintelligence. We now have systems that can diagnose any rare condition found in the literature, significantly better than human performance, more cheaply, with fewer tests and with higher accuracy. We are putting it through independent peer review at the moment and soon there’ll be clinical trials. So this is very, very, very exciting.

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Did you push for that focus yourself? You’ve been running Microsoft AI for about 18 months now. I’m conscious that your mother was a nurse and, unusually for senior people in tech, you’ve worked in the public sector as well.

This is an area that’s very important to me. My mum was a nurse and I’m just a big believer that technology is here to serve us.

It should make our lives better, make us more comfortable. One day, I think it is going to help us to live longer. It’s going to give us the option to work less if we choose to. It’s going to produce abundance. We have to make conscious decisions to use it for those applications first. 5

5 “Abundance” is both the title of a book by US journalists Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson and the name for a loose political coalition that has gained traction in the US, the UK and beyond. The details vary, but the gist is that policymakers should make it easier to produce the stuff people value — from housing to electricity to new drugs — and not just focus on divvying up shares of a fixed pie.

Abundance is such a big promise. Tell me what you mean by it. We hear about AI destroying jobs, but are you saying that the work will be done by AI increasingly, and therefore humans won’t have to work as much?

It is inevitable that at some point over the next 20 or 30 years, machines are going to be more capable than humans at doing most work — that might come much sooner.

We have to decide as a society what our purpose is. We have to be very thoughtful about the rate of introduction of new machines, because we have to make sure that displacement is counterbalanced with a mechanism to fund people and to support people through a massive transition.

Do you believe in the idea of a universal basic income? That’s what AI making the economy more productive could unlock?

I’ve long been on record saying that. That is inevitable and very desirable. We already live in a world of abundance, it’s just poorly distributed.

Value isn’t just manifested in atoms — food, cars, physical things. It’s manifested in digital goods — ideas, knowledge, intelligence. That’s actually great news because that can proliferate; it can spread extremely quickly around the entire world. LLMs and chatbots have been the fastest spreading technology in history — basically 2 billion annual users in the space of three years.

There’s going to be massive competitive forces to reduce the cost of experiencing an AI. The challenge we’re going to have to figure out is how we tax and redistribute, so that the transition is a healthy one. 6

6 We’ll have to wait and see if Suleyman’s view on competitive forces is borne out. So far, the internet economy has been defined by a winner-take-all dynamic — for example, search being dominated by Google. If AI follows that pattern, customers won’t necessarily see the benefits he’s describing.

Tell me more about where these ideas and your beliefs come from. Your mother was a nurse, but the family you grew up in — in London in the 1980s and ’90s — how would you describe it?

Pretty working class. My dad was a cab driver. We were fairly regular, kind of unremarkable. My parents didn’t super value education. They always thought I should go get a trade — my mum would often say to me, You should be a carpenter or electrician, leave school at 16.

It comes from a place of experiencing the rougher end of things a little bit and having a desire to try to do the best we can with the short life that we have.

Your dad came to the UK from Syria. What happened when you were 16? I read that when your parents split up, you and your younger brother were pretty much left to fend for yourselves.

That’s true. I don’t know where you read that. Me and my younger brother did live on our own for a few years.

I’m curious to know what it taught you and how you dealt with it at the time.

When you’re that age, you are precocious and overconfident and fearless. We had everything that we needed. I had great teachers and mentors. I went to a very good school. I studied really hard when I was 10 for the entrance exams and it was essentially like going to a private school.

I was lucky enough to get into Oxford and that was an amazing experience. [But] I was very frustrated and eager to change the world and get stuff done. So I dropped out and helped start Muslim Youth Helpline, a non-religious, non-judgmental listening service for young British Muslims, who after 9/11 were dealing with identity crisis, lack of connection to community, family, parents, bullying. 7

7 Suleyman was reluctant to speak about this period in his life, but I can’t help feeling there’s a link to his subsequent achievements. It must have taught him resilience and responsibility and perhaps also confidence in his own instincts. Between the ages of 18 and 26 he got into one of the world’s best universities, dropped out, and then co-founded DeepMind.

Mustafa Suleyman as a student at Oxford University, before he dropped out at 19. Source: Mustafa Suleyman

Had you experienced anti-Muslim sentiment and hatred yourself after 9/11?

A little bit, yeah. I think a lot of people felt we weren't “British” enough. People were figuring out how to live their cultural [and] religious identities, in the context of families that often were first-generation, didn’t really speak the language, didn’t know how to navigate the system. The increased skepticism, that we were mostly terrorists — this general fear and exclusion. Most of the time that was dealt with by having kind and supportive conversation — somebody available on the other end of a telephone.

Now you are in this circle of power — one of a small group of people making decisions on a technology that is changing all our lives. How conscious are you of that power?

Very, very conscious. I take it very seriously. It is a great responsibility. This is a moment when decisions we make may have very lasting consequences. 8

8 This is a question I also asked Stanford computer scientist and “Godmother of AI” Fei-Fei Li, who answered in similar terms: “I’m one of the people who brought this technology to the world… everything I do has a consequence and that’s a responsibility I shoulder.”

I read history and look back [at] the social media revolution — where potential harms fell on deaf ears for too long — or smoking or oil. It’s very clear these things will cause harm. I think that we have to be very, very careful about how we deploy them, and how they’re introduced into the world.

Do you talk about this with your peers — people like Sam Altman?

Yes. Everybody in the industry does. There’s definitely a group of the CEOs. Sam and Dario [Amodei] from Anthropic were co-founders, me and Demis [Hassabis] were co-founders. We all know each other very well. On the whole, everybody is genuinely committed to trying to find the right path through. It’s also very competitive. 9

9 Hassabis and Suleyman founded DeepMind alongside Shane Legg in 2010. Four years later, it was acquired by Google for a reported $400 million. Suleyman was placed on leave in 2019, amid complaints over his management style, for which he has since apologized. He was appointed a VP of AI product management and policy at Google, a role he held until leaving the parent company altogether in 2022.

Dario Amodei, CEO and co-founder of Anthropic, maker of Claude. Photographer: Michael M. Santiago/Getty Images

OpenAI CEO Sam Altman oversees ChatGPT. Photographer: Kyle Grillot/Bloomberg

Google DeepMind CEO Demis Hassabis was a former colleague of Suleyman’s. Photographer: Ludovic Marin/POOL/AFP/Getty Images

Do you recognize the term broligarchy?

[Laughs]

I haven’t heard that before, but I can figure out what it means. Yeah, I guess that’s true. It is very male-centric — although Mira Murati, the ex-CTO of OpenAI, is one of the best people in the field.

Mira Murati’s startup Thinking Machine raised close to $2 billion at a $10 billion valuation, Bloomberg News reported in June. Photographer: Jon Kopaloff/Getty Images for WIRED

Or tech bros. I’m sure you’ve heard that one. I don’t know if you’ve seen Jesse Armstrong’s Mountainhead?

I haven’t, no. 10

10 The central characters in this dystopian satire are composites of real-life billionaire tech leaders. “They’re very important figures and very talented figures,” Armstrong told me in a Weekend Interview earlier this year. “I just think it’s interesting what happens to people as they try to marry their egos with their moral impulses, and in this case with an unbelievably large amount of money.”

I recommend it. It’s quite a sobering portrait of life in this rarefied, very powerful circle.

Part of the challenge is that we all spend a lot of time in Silicon Valley, where the skies are blue and life is very peaceful.

I try to travel a lot. I just came back from China. It’s staggering to get out of the bubble and see how this technology is being developed on the other side of the world. The pace of innovation, but also the thoughtfulness of some of the regulatory stuff. It’s impressive. 11

11 Since 2022, China has rolled out a series of AI regulations, including rules for recommendation algorithms and requiring labels for AI-generated content.

Jesse Armstrong’s Mountainhead stars Cory Michael Smith, Steve Carell, Ramy Youssef and Jason Schwartzman. Photographer: Macall Polay/HBO

If I say to you, Sam Altman, what word first comes into your mind?

Oh my God. I guess courageous.

He’s obviously growing his data center fleet very aggressively. He may well turn out to be one of the great entrepreneurs of our generation. He’s certainly achieved a lot. He’s building data centers at a faster rate than anyone in the industry, and if he can pull it off, it will be pretty dramatic.

It’s interesting that there is an if on that, and I understand why — there are huge amounts of money being spent by OpenAI. Is it a gamble? Is it not a given that it’s going to pay off for them?

ChatGPT is one of the greatest products we’ve seen in a generation — that speaks for itself. At the same time, they’ve signed over $1.5 trillion of commitments for building data centers over the next five or 10 years, and their revenues are quite a long way from there. So they’ve got a long way to go, but they’re a very talented team. I’ve got every confidence they can do it.

Big Tech Spending Expected To Keep Climbing

Companies are boosting capex to fund artificial intelligence

Note: 2025, 2026 figures include estimates

Source: Bloomberg

What word would you use to describe Demis Hassabis?

Probably a great scientist. I think he’s a great thinker and he’s a good polymath. He’s made massive contributions in the field, multiple times. He’s truly exceptional.

You worked together, and now you are competitors.

Yeah. But we started off as very close friends, and we worked together every day for 10 years. I learnt a lot from him and have huge respect for him.

Do you still talk?

We texted last night, actually. I congratulated him on Nano Banana, Gemini 3 and five years of AlphaFold all in one week. 12

12 Gemini 3, the latest version of Google’s AI chatbot, outperforms ChatGPT on many benchmarks; its release prompted Sam Altman to declare a “code red” for his rival model. But Bloomberg Opinion’s Parmy Olsen has questioned Gemini’s ability to overtake ChatGPT in terms of market share, ; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / .5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 ; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 ; --tw-shadow: 0 0 ; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 ; --tw-blur: ; --tw-brightness: ; --tw-contrast: ; --tw-grayscale: ; --tw-hue-rotate: ; --tw-invert: ; --tw-saturate: ; --tw-sepia: ; --tw-drop-shadow: ; --tw-backdrop-blur: ; --tw-backdrop-brightness: ; --tw-backdrop-contrast: ; --tw-backdrop-grayscale: ; --tw-backdrop-hue-rotate: ; --tw-backdrop-invert: ; --tw-backdrop-opacity: ; --tw-backdrop-saturate: ; --tw-backdrop-sepia: ; --tw-contain-size: ; --tw-contain-layout: ; --tw-contain-paint: ; --tw-contain-style: ; box-sizing: border-box; border-width: 0px 0px 1px; border-style: solid; border-color: rgb(229, 229, 229) rgb(229, 229, 229) rgb(97, 122, 83); outline-color: rgba(10, 10, 10, 0.5); color: inherit; text-decoration: inherit; --annotation-color: rgb(97,122,83); --lede-background-color: rgb(169,178,150); --serif-head: 'BWHaasDingbat','PublicoHead',Georgia,Cambria,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; --serif-text: 'BWHaasDingbat','PublicoText',Georgia,Cambria,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; --san-serif-web: 'BWHaasDingbat','BWHaasGroteskWeb',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;">writing: “Google has often struggled to replicate the so-called network effects that propel an online platform to stratospheric user numbers… While Google is betting on being smarter, OpenAI is gambling on being harder to quit.”

Have you tried out Gemini 3? It’s creating quite a lot of waves.

It’s good.

Do you think it’s better than ChatGPT?

They’re kind of different. It’s definitely got more niche skills that ChatGPT doesn’t have, and it’s very fast. But ChatGPT is very strong, so I wouldn’t go that far.

Is it better than Copilot?

It can do things that Copilot can’t do, but Copilot also has features that it doesn’t have.

Copilot is actually amazing for vision. It can see everything that you are seeing and talk to you in real time. You can share your screen with Copilot on mobile or desktop, talk about it and get feedback. We’re really trying to imagine the day-to-day experience of having this really intelligent assistant at your side, that can help unblock you whenever you get stuck.

I’m only going to do one more of these. Elon Musk, how would you describe him?

I guess a bulldozer. He’s kind of got superhuman capabilities to bend reality to his will and has [a] pretty incredible track record.

Somehow he mostly manages to pull off what appears to be impossible. [He] probably [has a] different set of values.

I interviewed him. He ended up calling me an NPC.

[Laughs]

That sounds exactly like Elon. I kind of like that he speaks his mind. He’s very unfiltered.

You’ve said your politics are different from his, and Peter Thiel’s. Would you say you’re on the left of the political spectrum? 13

13 The co-founders of Tesla and Palantir can be loosely defined as right-wing libertarians. Both have funded Trump in presidential campaigns and backed JD Vance as a possible successor. For Musk, that was something of a shift — he was once a self-described centrist and Obama supporter — whereas Thiel’s politics, though unusual, are long-standing. Skeptical of government, Thiel notoriously wrote in 2009: “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.”

I’m sort of a centrist these days. I definitely started as a lefty. I worked for Ken Livingstone back in the day, and was frankly, very inspired by a lot of those people, even though they also made a lot of mistakes. But I’m proud to say that I’m on the center-left of the spectrum. I believe that government plays an important role in society. 14

14 Livingstone, a socialist dubbed “Red Ken” in the British press, became London’s first elected mayor in 2000. Some have compared him to New York’s mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani — both figures who have been at odds with their parties’ leadership at times.

It’s a controversial thing to say in Silicon Valley, but I think regulation is necessary and it has made most technologies better. People forget this. Cars only work because we have driver training, emissions regulations, streetlights and speed limits. That’s what regulation is when it works well. We just need more of that.

Ken Livingstone served as mayor of London from 2000 to 2008. Photographer: Daniel Leal/AFP/Getty Images

Do you feel isolated saying that, because clearly the Trump administration is not into regulation, and the industry overall is quite happy with that.

Right now, we are not in a mode where there is huge catastrophic harm. The industry’s done a pretty good job of introducing very powerful chatbots where the personality is sculpted to be very even-handed, very evidence-based. It didn’t have to go like that. It went like that because the leaders have done a pretty decent job. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t going to be issues coming up, and I’m very wide-eyed about them, but I don’t think we’re in a mode where we need emergency regulation.

Some of the regulations that have been proposed in Europe are currently in talks to be wound back, with the EU AI Act. I think that’s good. People shouldn’t criticize that. That’s the process working — regulator taking feedback, seeing how things work in practice. That should be celebrated.

In your book, and a piece you wrote about the same time [2023] for Foreign Affairs, you wanted three different kinds of governance regimes, modeled on climate change, financial stability and arms control. You sound much more sanguine now. Is it because of where you are?

No, I’m still calling for those things. We should have a financial stability board for AI. We should have a climate process, [and] an ICAN [International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons], which audits the progress that we are making. I advocated for the White House AI principles under the Biden administration, where we made voluntary commitments as companies. At the time, it was my startup, Inflection, but we pushed all the other companies to do it as well. We’ve signed up to disclosures in Europe and with the UK AI Safety Institute.

So I don’t mean to say that we don’t need it, I’m saying that these are such long-term effects, and these governance processes take so long to build, that [we’ve] got to start now. But we don’t need [a] knee-jerk reaction. We don’t need some panicked overreaction. That would cause a different set of problems.

You’ve got a revised agreement with OpenAI. You suddenly have the freedom to pursue AI independently. Help me understand how that relationship with OpenAI is going to work...